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 Author Thread: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 01:04 PM
High Quality Test Files at Vimeo

None of the test files in this channel were made with Photo Story (not yet)... I used MM2.1 and MM6 with custom effects via custom xml files.

The Jungfrau clip was made with a jpg source file of over 14,400 pixels in width, more than twice the size limit of a picture used in PS3.

The testing shows that high quality pans and zooms in Movie Maker is possible.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
dlk is not online. Last active: 7/2/2011 1:14:29 PM dlk
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 02:34 PM
PapaJohn,
I tried something like this a long time ago.
Seems like Rehan suggested that MM2 downsized
the resolution to 640*480 when applying effects.
Not so?


dave
dlk is not online. Last active: 7/2/2011 1:14:29 PM dlk
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 06:20 PM
Oh, and I forgot to say...
Very cool. The photos and the whole idea of
resurrecting those memories.


dave
Rehan is not online. Last active: 5/8/2012 5:49:17 PM Rehan
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 06:58 PM
Hi Dave, yes I believe MM2 resizes the input images to the size of the output size. This means the quality of pans and zooms would be dependent on what output size one chooses. if one uses a suitable custom output profile one can still maintain reasonable quality of pans and zooms.

www.rehanfx.org - do more with Windows Movie Maker...
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dlk is not online. Last active: 7/2/2011 1:14:29 PM dlk
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 07:11 PM
Ah... that's the key. Using a custom profile.
I know PapaJohn has a lot about that on his site.
I will have to look at that again.

thanks
dave


neophyte is not online. Last active: 11/18/2017 7:54:20 AM neophyte
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 09:40 PM
I was looking for info on the resizing of images by Movie Maker recently and came across the following statement in PapaJohn's Newsletter #78:

"Movie Maker can handle pictures as small as a pixel... and higher, but the upper limit isn't important. It resamples big ones to 800x600 before using them in the project... consider 800x600 the effective practical limit for the source files for your movies. More than that usually doesn't enhance the visual quality."

I didn't see anything in his newsletter about what happens when you use a custom profile or when you're saving a movie using a 16:9 aspect ratio. Hopefully, he can shed a little more light on those cases and whether the Vista version resizes images in the same way as MM2.1.

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Confucius
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 25 May 2008 11:54 PM
What I said 2-1/2 years ago in that newsletter was the sum total of what I knew about the subject up to that point... and up to last week.

The visual quality of the source files themselves is set by the files, and nothing to do with Movie Maker. They are the best you can achieve.

All that I heard and saw up to last week supported it. I'd been detouring users to Photo Story if they wanted higher pixel quality in their video clips made from still images. But now, after making some custom test files, I see that Movie Maker can achieve what Photo Story 3 does... by using custom made effects in xml files.

It's not about the custom profiles used to save a movie, or about widescreen versus standard aspect ratio. It's just in effectively using the pixels of interest and passing them along into the rendered movie in such a way that the highest visual quality is achieved. It's done by the logic built into the custom xml file.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
dlk is not online. Last active: 7/2/2011 1:14:29 PM dlk
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 10:09 AM
Hi PapaJohn,
Please, do tell.

dave




PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 10:32 AM
a little more testing and tweaking first...

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
Rehan is not online. Last active: 5/8/2012 5:49:17 PM Rehan
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 10:34 AM
Hi Papajohn, I am rather surprised by your claim. Have you done any extreme experiments to test your theory? Like starting with a large image and using custom xml to zoom to "very small" area using movie maker vs doing the same with Photostory?

I will better go and do it myself before commenting any further!

www.rehanfx.org - do more with Windows Movie Maker...
rehanfx.x10hosting.com - mirror site
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 10:52 AM
Hi Rehan.

Are you surprised by what I said 2-1/2 years ago, or now?

Yes I tested what I had written in the newsletter using standard effects such as the 'Ease-in' one applied 6 times, and 3rd party apps like the Pixelan Pan/Zoom Maker.... and saw the pixilization that would be consistent with Movie Maker resampling first before doing the zooming.

But I'm seeing now that with custom xml you can get past this apparant limitation.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
Rehan is not online. Last active: 5/8/2012 5:49:17 PM Rehan
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 09:16 PM
Hi Papajohn

I was expressing surprise on your new statement. I also have been holding the same opinion you had 2 years ago... but in my case I still hold that view... as my experiments are still supporting it. At least using my own pan zoom package. I presume you are using Pixelan's package? But even then the results should be the same.

I tried this image: panorama.jpg taken from this site using google search.

I first created a simple PS3 project to achieve this result: panorama_ps3.wmv (640x480 1.9Mb)

I created a simple WMM project using WMM2.6 and applied following custom effects made with my pan zoom package to achieve this result: panorama_mm26.wmv (640x480 9.3Mb)

<TransitionsAndEffects Version="1.0" SpecialIconFileID="2000"
SpecialIconResourceID="101">
<Effects>
<EffectDLL guid="{4B4670E6-4512-4bec-BED1-57A017078ECC}">
<Effect name="!Panorama Pan" iconid="1">
<Param name="X1" value="0.0" />
<Param name="Y1" value="0.4" />
<Param name="Size1" value="0.2" />
<Param name="X2" value="0.8" />
<Param name="Y2" value="0.4" />
<Param name="Size2" value="0.2" />
</Effect>
</EffectDLL>
</Effects>
</TransitionsAndEffects>


An equivalent Pixelan XML would be something like this:

<TransitionsAndEffects Version="1.0" SpecialIconFileID="36" SpecialIconResourceID="301">
<Effects>
<EffectDLL guid="{B67D4152-81AE-11d7-9A2E-000000000000}">
<Effect name="!Pixelan Panorama Pan" iconid="0">
<Param name="EffectID" value="201"/>
<Param name="X1" value="-1.000"/>
<Param name="X2" value="1.000"/>
<Param name="Y1" value="0.000"/>
<Param name="Y2" value="0.000"/>
<Param name="S1" value="0.200"/>
<Param name="S2" value="0.200"/>
</Effect>
</EffectDLL>
</Effects>
</TransitionsAndEffects>


It produced a similar result as from my pan zoom package, albeit somewhat better quality. However both of the Movie Maker results (using my pan zoom or pixelan's) were considerably poorer than PS3 !

If somebody wants to experiment with the project files: download them from here



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PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 09:42 PM
OK... I made a comparable test file with the Seattle skyline image, using MM6 on my Vista Home Basic laptop.... I'll show you the results shortly.

We're aligned. I'd have the same results as you using the tools in my current toolbox. But this will be a new tool.... which makes the difference.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 09:58 PM
Here's a clip made with one copy of the jpg file on the timeline of MM6 with a single custom effect applied.... from a new custom effect xml file. I saved it to a widescreen video 480 pixels high to align with your samples. The change in pan/zoom motions is done within the single copy of the picture, not needing mulitple copies of the picture as Photo Story needs.

Seattle Panorama

Yes, I had tested it with extreme cases... those are the results that are on my new vimeo channel.... the Jungfrau clip using a jpg over 14,000 pixels wide versus the 4,500 pixels in the Seattle panorama.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
Rehan is not online. Last active: 5/8/2012 5:49:17 PM Rehan
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 10:29 PM
Ah! I think I am beginning to see your twist!
You are bypassing the WMM limitations... by not pushing the image through the WMM pipeline. Instead you must be using the image as an overlay directly into the custom plugin !!!

This can be done easily in my unreleased PipPlus 2....
Actually even PipPlus 1.0 should be able to pull this trick. Let me try...


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glow is not online. Last active: 2/28/2016 4:07:11 AM glow
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 26 May 2008 10:58 PM
I'm tuning into this discussion but suspect I've missed something here.Perplexed
From what I can see, PapaJohn has a new trick up his sleeve and we are all trying to guess how he does it before he publishes it.

Now it's been posted in the "Share you XP.." section so can I assume it uses XP XML and not some new Vista Shader tricks. PapaJohn mentioned WMM2.6 which is the Vista version which uses the XP XML.

PJ mentioned a single custom effect applied to a jpg on the timeline. So I'm guessing that rules out a custom title. I assume that also rules out passing an overlay in the XML as Rehan suggested.

Personally I gave up using Photostory 3 for pan zooms a few years ago. Now I just use WMM2.1 with the MCE edition pan/zooms (WMM2FXPZ.DLL) extended with some of the hidden positions. I find the quality quite ok and it's just easier to mix stills and movies in one program.

Nevertheless I'm intrigued by this...

Any hints Papajohn?






I use Firefox+Greasemonkey scripts for easier editing of forum posts, FAQs and displaying embedded images Wink
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 27 May 2008 01:12 AM
Thanks for the pointer to my editorial error... I meant MM6, not MM2.6, and changed it it that post.

This new thing wasn't developed by me... I'm just a hacker and the developer is a real programmer like some of those who hang out here. My role is beta testing and commenting from the sidelines.

I'd say more if it was my baby, but I'm under NDA not to. Stay tuned for announcement(s) one of these days. Hey, I don't even know the schedule for the roll out. It won't be published by me.

Right, it's a video effect, not an overlay or transition.... and works equally well on MM2.1 in XP and MM6 in Vista. I'm impressed with how little memory is needed to render the movies with the effects added.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
Rehan is not online. Last active: 5/8/2012 5:49:17 PM Rehan
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 27 May 2008 06:15 AM
I can understand if it is WMM6 effect. True vista version of WMM (6.0) has no such problem with reducing the quality of pans and zooms. It uses full resolution internally.

However I am still puzzled how the same would apply to WMM2.1 / 2.6 ! as they use completely different internal technology to MM6.

Interesting...

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PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 27 May 2008 12:24 PM
I've said as much as I can for now, until the new tool is published... and will go back to testing and putting the results on the vimeo channel.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 28 May 2008 05:06 PM
One more sample is in my test pack at vimeo... using a 6200x6200 pixel image (that's almost 40 megapixels) from the Hubble telescope, making a custom pan/zoom effect with my new tool, and adding a Pixelan special video effect for the ghosting...

What does it show? Mostly I want you to see that the panning speed doesn't need to be constant as it is in Photo Story 3. I made the clip so the movement starts out slowly, picks up speed for the middle, and slows back down again at the end. All done with a single video effect.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
neophyte is not online. Last active: 11/18/2017 7:54:20 AM neophyte
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 28 May 2008 10:04 PM
PapaJohn - I know you're bound by your NDA, so I won't ask any questions about the new custom xml file (although you've certainly tweaked my interest).

However, I would like to find out more about how version 2.1 (the vanilla version without any custom xml files) handles images. Does it resize large ones (e.g., 1920x1440) down to a certain size (e.g., 800x600)? If it does, is that size affected by the use of a custom profile and, if so, how? When an effect is applied to an image, is the effect applied before or after it is resized?

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Confucius
PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 28 May 2008 10:16 PM
Hi... feel free to ask about anything. It's my job to live to the NDA.

The resizing that Movie Maker does is virtual of course, not actually making a resized temp file...

My rule of thumb is that it treats large files as if they were 800x600, doing the virtual resizing before applying any effects. That's why an Ease-In effect applied 6 times to the same clip, even a large one, would be highly pixilated by the time it was zoomed in as far it is going. If it did the resizing after the zooming it would look much better.

I suppose that, if you were using 1920x1440 and saving to a 1920x1440 profile size, it may not be resizing... I've never tested it to see if the rule of thumb is only when heading to file sizes like 640x480.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
neophyte is not online. Last active: 11/18/2017 7:54:20 AM neophyte
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 28 May 2008 10:37 PM
PapaJohn - thanks for the additional info. When I get a chance, I'll try a test with a large image and a custom profile and see what differences (if any) I see.

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand. -- Confucius
Rehan is not online. Last active: 5/8/2012 5:49:17 PM Rehan
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 29 May 2008 05:35 AM
Hi Papajohn.

Dont want to be picky bt I think there is a problem in your explanation. You said:
"My rule of thumb is that it treats large files as if they were 800x600, doing the virtual resizing before applying any effects. That's why an Ease-In effect applied 6 times to the same clip, even a large one, would be highly pixilated by the time it was zoomed in as far it is going. If it did the resizing after the zooming it would look much better. "

The example you gave is not logically related to the assumption. Applying the same effect multiple times would loose resolution because of some other reason: since each effect will be applied to the result of the previous effect, so each subsequent effect has only avilable the input-resolution of previous effects output.

It doesnt matter how much bigger your initial image was, the second effect will only see output of the first effect.

This does not answer neo's question that if or not MM resizes the input image to the very first effect.

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PapaJohn is not online. Last active: 2/23/2015 2:43:58 PM PapaJohn
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Re: High Quality Pans and Zooms in Movie Maker...
Posted: 29 May 2008 11:55 AM
Maybe this is an example of how a good programmer thinks about it versus a hacker who doesn't know how it works at the lower level.

Be picky... there's much I can learn. I don't understand why a 2nd stage zoom couldn't maintain the quality that's in the source file. Maybe because it's a digital zoom, and I'm thinking it could be like an optical one. Isn't this new tool doing it like optical when everything done to now has done it digitally.. so thinking analog might be better in this case.

... my website isn't here... it's at www.papajohn.org
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